Kiss cutting

I just want to clarify earlier comments…looking down on a sheet from above…the top would be away from the operator and the bottom closer. I’m not referring to the actual physical position of the sheet.

Whatever presses you work on, to ensure accurate register all presses must use the same lay edges; if one press uses a work & turn format then so must the others.

This is a well established rule and there can be no deviation if you want accuracy, no matter how difficult it may be for the operator.

Bern;
I completely understand and agree with your statement. I’m not sure how to accomplish that due to the difference between the presses. The engraving presses only have one way to feed and the windmill only has one way to feed. And they are not the same. Thanks. I’m wondering about doing the embossing on the windmill. I’ve experimented with it before, but never really had time to work with it. If it would work at least all the guides would be in the same place. I’ve seen it done using pour-a- counter. I tried used counter board like the engraving presses use but either way is tricky so the grippers don’t tear the counter loose.

I can’t help with your original post, but can help some with embossing on a windmill. We do that some and for the majority of the times it works well enough. The impression of the embossing die isn’t as crisp as it was/is on an engraving press, but most people find it good enough.

if your guides to their are on opposite corners why can’t you just turn everything 180 on the windmill? I may be confused by the description of which edges are guide and gripper though. which way the sheet faces when it feeds won’t matter as much as which edge is used. If the registration systems are accurate enough guide edge can be swapped with the gripper edge and vice versa and the sheet should still register. Essentially turning the sheet 90 degrees if the side guides are opposite each other.

You can also try back trimming the stock off the guide or gripper. This should allow you to register from the opposite end of the sheet with better (not perfect) registration since any difference in sheet sizes is reduced.

We’ve tried the 180 thing but this stock has a tendency to curl sometimes. Our offset pressman sugguested trimming the stock on the guide sides. I was informed today that we have a die and counter coming in that should work on the windmill. So hopefully I’ll be able to do the embossing and then kiss cutting without having to make any major adjustments.

Hopefully the new idea will work, but this is to try to clear up the confusion for some of you. Do appreciate all the answers etc. If you are the engraving press operator two guides would be towards your stomach and one to your right, The impression would be away from your stomach and to the left. On the windmill we tried to to do the same thing with guides away from your stomach and one to the right. First time we did it with the cutting die towards the stomach and to the left. there was too much movemwnt. This time we did the cutting where the windmill guides are (bottom right corner). Some were right on and some weren’t. So this time we hope to do both embossing and kiss cutting on the windmill. That way the guides will be hitting the same. Hope this didn’t cause more confusion.

I have run both engraving and foil Heidelberg’s, I am just having a hard time understanding your problem. Because I have been able to go back and forth on both presses and keep my guides. The only guide that should actually be different is on the side. With engraving the side is at the top of the sheet, and on the windmill it would be at the bottom. Depending on if you run your dies upside down or straight up on the windmill. If I remember all of this correctly, I haven’t done it for a few years.

Engravers can also print extremely well with one pusher and two side guides. Sometimes this makes it easier to match up to other presses.

With curly paper causing you problems you may be dropping it to far and early before it hits the guides.

Embossing on a windmill looks good if you know how to even out your pressure. Your arms ripping off your counter is can fixed, its just hard to explain and easier to show. You would use strips of phenolic board for your arm to slide on across your platen and keeping it above your counter.

If you ever do use a combination die and counter make sure you never pack your pressure on top of the counter, especially with how expensive those combo’s are. Like a hot leaf foil emboss die combo.

I can help explain how to avoid ripping off your counter better in person or over the phone if you want help. Also your engravers should be able to change their guides easy enough, but I have done hairline registration going from a windmill to a Cronite, so its not impossible.

Good luck

Brent Weaver
Mankato, MN

Brent;
If you are doing the engraving and kiss cutting on a Heidelberg, what you say is true. The problem was that the engraving presses are hand fed engraving presses, not windmills. And when they are hand fed the guides are not in the same position as windmills. They are completely opposite. For them to feed the same way the windmills do would result in permantely smashes fingers!
Theier guides are actually mounted on chipboard with areas cut out to allow their fingers to reach underneath. And they are fed upside down. Are you familiar with Cronite engraving presses?
Ron

Yes I am more then familiar with all kinds of Cronite and Carver engraving presses, and also windmill Heidelberg’s. I am still lucky to have all my fingers and some sanity. I have more injuries from a windmill then a hand fed press. If your not going home bruised and bleeding, then why even bother showing up? ha ha

But as to your post, you can still register from a engraving press, auto or hand fed, to a windmill or even a kluge. Although for me it’s always been easier to go from the windmill’s and kluges to an engraving press, but that all depends on what job and design you are doing.

I have even done hairline registration from a offset press to an engraving press. Which to me is extremely hard especially when you have a zero margin of error design.

Sorry if I misunderstood anything from the original post. Everything I have said though I have done.

You can always find a way to make this stuff work, if anyone would like I can provide links to companies that do it every single day, hairline registration back and forth from different kinds of presses. It’s not easy and always desirable, but it can be done. Especially the situation described in the original post, that’s just standard stuff for some companies I work with.

Anyway good luck with it. I hope everything works out well for you.

Brent Weaver
Mankato, MN

Sorry for the double posting, I wanted to apologize if in my previous post I sounded cocky or snotty. That was not my intention at all.

If you don’t do stuff like this on a regular basis I can understand the problems that you will face. You can do it though. It’s just hard for me to explain what you have to do since I am not physically looking at the job and the equipment.

One thing though, are you positive your engraver’s have their registration right on and consistent? Everyone involved needs to be on the same page and skill level for it to actually work right.

Brent

Brent;
I didn’t take it that way at all. I know you are trying to help. As far as bruised and bleeding we get enough of that just filing all the offset plates. ha ha They are really sharp. I probably misinderstood your first reply and that is why I asked if you were familiar with Cronites. We do have one “baby” Carver also. I’m checking on doing both parts of the job on the same press. That way the guides will always be in the same corner of the stock. The way they (engraving) feed is exactly on the opposite corner.
Ron

Just an update on this subject. I was able to do the blind embossing and the kiss cutting on the same press. (windmill). It was the first time for me to do it. Everything lined up and it came out really good. Because of not being sure of how much impression was needed, I backed way out and slowly turned the impression up which is a good idea any time you do something different. It’s a lot better than smashing the die and counter.
Ron