Monotype Palace Script Discovery.
Dateline 24/08/ `14, Lousy Bank Holiday afternoon, should be out cranking up the New/Old Cropper Minerva, Platen, W/shop roof leaking, hence inside consuming too much coffee, but actually amalgamating 3/4/5 sets of Monotype Palace Script, (to proof up on the Minerva, right reading proof always better on Palace Script.!!) especially for handsetting.??
Discovery follows thus:- I.E. although different sets were/are from different era,s and all from Monotype Mats and only ever on Monotype moulds, some have different Pin Marks? implying that the type, was cast by not only normal Monotype Users but also by Founders running Monotype P/Script mats but Monotype Moulds with purpose made pin marks, but all completely compatible for alignment.
Several significant points involved, (A) when *NEW* Monotype Palace script is advertised on E Bay etc, @ some seemingly attractive price, it may well be in As New condition but N.B. Can never be reproduced because (B) the Moulds were sent to South America by Monotype, even the *Founders* could only send them back to Monotype,s Mould Room for overhaul & the Mats were only Hired from Monotype,s Lending library.
I personally tried very hard, over a long period, to trace and re-aquire the P/Script Moulds, with info from Monotype, Redhill, Drawing Office and Lending library.
The significance being, mid to late 70,s the writing was on the wall etc, if and when, (which happened eventually) the overhaul of Moulds was discontinued and the lending library was closed, (Library fortunately preserved now by Monotype Hot Metal London) but with limited range of faces/sizes by virtue of the many sets, that had *burnt out* Mats missing, The Massive Brake presses for Striking the mats were scrapped at Redhill, it was a terrific *kick* watching and HEARING? The Mats being struck, Earplugs were not on the agenda, back then. Possibly why, Hospitality was good in the Canteen,?
We did not appreciate at the time, that Monotype Palace script was cast on a basically square body, (we knew it was unique) but the top of the type terminated in a cranked body to accomodate the Script Format, but had to have special opening and closing spaces, which would facilitate quadding out, or centering with normal spaces. Never enough script spaces or increments, i.e. quads, nuts, thicks, mids, thins, >hair spaces< were never an option, when we had to chop thin spaces from standard strip, 2 pt. 1 1/2 pt. or even 1 pt. to LETTERSPACE, in special circumstances, the thin spaces had to be then, cut down to 3/4 of normal height to fit under the *crank* of the type.***
Another related issue, MOULDTYPE in U.K. produced Palace Script, seemingly perfect (facewise) to Monotye or Vice Versa, But Mouldtype was cast with very unique moulds that had the main body completely angled, with hooks at the front to interlock, but again employed opening and closing a quad/space etc but added another factor, never quite figured, although on any particular size, the face to view/print, was the the same size, there would be scribed marks, indicating different alignments, maybe for Ascenders/Descenders, special purpose/needs.
This ramble by way of saying, Nice *New* shiny Palace Script, on E bay should be ascertained/investigated carefully, before purchase or bidding.
Seminar ends, with apologies. Mick
Intriguing - many thanks Mick.
I’ve handled both varieties of Palace Script but had not previously realised that both were Monotype 429. It seems odd that there should have been two different forms of mould for a single face.
You don’t by any chance know which form of body Riscatype employed as they also offered this face?
I don’t have a Startype type catalogue to check whether they also offered this face but it would be likely, as Palace Script was always a popular face; wonder which body Startype employed?
Like you, I’d always found a shortfall of spacing and line-start and line-end spaces for these bodies in second-hand cases of type.
T. F. P. Thank you,! I was implying that in the 3/4 blocks of Monotype Palace Script (18pt.) I have just completed setting into a single block, to proof up, the type that originated from and with Adana starter kits (I believe but can not be corroborated) was identified with a *Pin* mark at 8 point, or thereabouts, at normal low quad height, figure 1, range left, small diamond, @ centre, figure 8 range right.!! The other format designation, straight 18, as in point size, at about 12 point, pin mark! but very low down on the body of the type. Maybe exactly the same, origin, just different time scale, in production from the Mould Room at Redhill.
I was only familiar with Monotype Palace script or Mouldtype,s product. Stupidly and unfortunately I gave away several big Wall Charts, & Specimen Books (now regretted) From Mouldtype, Startype, Yendalls, Riscatype etc.etc.
Would be nice, even now, to clarify and distinguish, Perhaps I could trawl, with permission, the extensive Archives at our Museum, Amberley, Sussex U.K.
In passing, with the use of a precision Printers power saw, with very good clamping facilities, I can and have recently trimmed down standard height, nuts, in 2 sizes, to 3/4 standard height, as *ends* for Monotype Palace script, @ very modest cost , or better still >barter< for used type metal, even prepared to Stoop to Ludlow, Lino or Elrod product… . Non intended, those operators.? Mick.
I can’t recall the synopsis of an Adana font of Palace Script, but in 1965 Riscatype offered the following as standard:
14pt: 5lbs A6 a40.
18pt: 5lbs A4 a20
24pt: 5lbs A3 a12.
30pt: 10lbs A3 a15.
36pt: 10lbs A3 a12.
42pt: 10 lbs A2 a5.
Some of these seem to be pretty small fonts - possibly as small as some fonts offered by Adana? i.e. is it possible that some of the fonts you’ve been amalgamating may not be from Adana and may instead possibly be from Mouldtype, Riscatype (Yendall & Co Ltd) or Startype?
I will look more closely at the various fonts of angle body scripts when I encounter them, especially to differentiate the pin marks of angle tops on square bodies from true angle bodies - you’ve got me quite intrigued!
It seems odd that Monotype that they would have offered two different body moulds for a single face - it runs counter to the company’ perpetual emphasis on standardisation.
On digging a little deeper, I see that Jaspert, Berry & Johnson state that Palace Script was designed by Stephenson Blake in 1923 and subsequently licensed to Monotype. I wonder if the two styles of body differentiate SB from Monotype?
An undated 1950s SB catalogue of card fonts gives the following synopses for Palace Script:
12 and 14pt: A3 14a.
18, 24 and 30pt: A2 a8.
The 1970 price list produced to update their 1969 150th anniversary catalogue gives the following syopses for Palace Script:
14pt: 3A 24a.
18pt: 3A 20a.
24pt: 2A 12a.
30pt: 2A 8a.
36pt: 2A 7a.
42pt: 2A 5a.
Again, these fonts are small - possibly some of the fonts you are working with might be SB?
The catalogue states “The Script Faces shown in the following pages are all cast on sloping and interlocking bodies.”
SB Marina Script was a slightly heavier script, very similar in form to Palace Script. SB combined Marine caps with Youthline lower case and marketed the result as Invitation Script. (Youthlinje is markedly bolder than the other scripts in this ‘family’).
SB Society Script was a slightly lighter script, very similar in form to Palace Script but a little extended, giving the impression of a slightly smaller x height.
SB Imperial Script was a little bolder than Palace Script, and a little more extended than Society Script.
I’d hate to have to sort out a mixed batch of all these fonts - a number of them are difficult to readily tell apart without proofing!
Palace Script is also available on two different body types and to argue the toss Mick was not exclusive to Monotype.
I have SB Palace Script with the interlocking body and also with a sort of twisted body if that makes sense.
Also this twisted body was not unique to SB or Monotype. I have in my possession Victorian angled body script types possibly as early as 1860-70.
Mick, I dont envy you dissing all that 18pt, the x height is tiny on Palace must make your brain hurt…!
Jez.
Jeremy, Yes indeed, the block of 18 point P.S. ended up big enough by area to fill a full out 8 x 5 Adana chase, at the moment situate on 1/3 of a 5” Galley, virtually all pristine, will eventually divi up into smaller fonts, but still much larger than the tiny, 3A, 5a, offerings from the original Adana starter kits,. First time around it was lucky if there was enough, to set even a simple letter heading/address, could not even think about a Wedding or Christening invite, although that WAS just possible, by doing 2/3 or more passes, only line by line, I.E Mr. & Mrs blah blah blah etc. *Request The Pleasure of the Company of* etc. that was usually it, for any other longer line,!!! Hence 2 or 3 passes, but it was done, with patience, and helped the learning curve.
Again yes I do have some, Mouldtype, P/S Completely angled body with the interlocking hooks, but that does have the 2 or more tiny scribed in marks, to indicate more than one alignment with the same face, on the same body, do not know why.?? More info welcome, never Cast Palace script.
And Yes I did end up with a Crashing headache, probably compounded by the strong light, and the fact that fortunately and unfortunately 50/50, the 3 sets were almost unused, still shiny with the glare, was not good, that is why eventually 2 or 3 smaller sets, sold on, will have to have Aspirin and Best coffee factored in!!
T.F.P. Thank you, and Yes on all counts, I will resort to proofing eventually, the 18 point was only mixed with a tiny amount of 12 & 24 point, I will cross that bridge when I come to.it. Thank you for the comprehensive Font size analysis, indeed, 14pt. 3A or 42pt. 2A WOULD have been impossible with out 2/3 maybe more passes, and comes to mind the usual joke, with modification, (with 2A 42 pt.}.trying to sell an Advanced Ardvark Antique, would have been silly, hypotheticl but did happen, hence the multiple passes.
I in no way meant to open this *Can of worms* but the combined efforts must, surely, be giving the up and coming L/press devotees, some thought provoking ideas
Regards All and thank you. Mick
P.S. Jeremy have sourced some info, re the Minerva from a B.P. Buddy in the States, perhaps because the Minerva has its origins, apparently, loosely connected with C.& P.!
The one down in Kent, according to the Curator has its serial number, plate, missing!! In the time span and production run,s they must be reasonably close.?
Even that far back, the engineering is/was still amazing, i.e. the three contra rotating ink discs although *clocked* in the Lathe @ just .001 accuracy, one against the other, all three have been Pop marked One, Two Three, with corresponding 1/2/3, pops in the master disc. + Although the 3 forme rollers, also clocked in my lathe, are accurate one against the other, they (the rollers & trucks) are individually numbered per roller and side to side, 1/1, 2/2, 3/3 4/4 5/5 6/6, amazing. Were/Are *Albions* that good,
Non Intended? Mick