Three treadle questions

Hello,

I have recently been hired at St. Ambrose University in Davenport, Iowa to work as their print/book arts professor.
The department was recently donated an 8 x 12 C&P a 12” x 18” C&P and a 325 manual Vandercook.

The two C&P’s have been motorized and I would like to convert the smaller of the two back to the foot treadle for beginning students to get comfortable with. I know I can order replacement treadles from Hern for the little guy, that’s not the question. With the presses came a treadle to vary the speed of the motor and two that I have not been able to identify. I’m just wondering if they are break treadles for the flywheel?

Secondly is there anywhere to fabricate the larger treadle if I ever desire too? (Hern doesn’t list that size, but I suppose I could ask them)

Thirdly (and to me most importantly) is the lack of a treadle on the 325. I have been unable to locate anything resembling what it looks like (My friends at Evanston Print & Paper have a 325 so I’m somewhat familiar). Is this a salvaging situation or is there a place I could turn to for a replacement treadle for it.

Enclosed are the photos of the unidentified treadle (breaks?) Additional pics can be provided if necessary.

Any info would be greatly appreciated and may end up causing spontaneous dancing and or sulking.

Joseph

image: treadle01.jpg

treadle01.jpg

image: treadle02.jpg

treadle02.jpg

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those guys are breaks. dick g.

Joseph,
The two photos are brakes.
Treadles can be easly fabricated by a welder.
I’m not aware that there were ever treadles for proof presses.
Best wishes,
Jim

if the smaller c&p has a straight shaft, you might not be able to use a treadle with the presss. dick g.

Treadles can also be made out of wood. I made the one below for my friend Sarah Smith of Smith Letterpress who ended up with my old 8x12 C&P. It’s good to be a cabinetmaker.

She does wonderful work with this press, by the way.

Rich

Front Room Press
Milford, NJ
http://frontroompress.com
http://frontroompress.blogspot.com

image: Sarahs Press With Treadle.jpg

Sarahs Press With Treadle.jpg

I should point out that I made the treadle the way I did (solid hickory, profiled edges, special adjustable attachment to take up any wear, lubrication holes, radiused foot plate, etc.) because I’m an overly fussy (another term comes to mind) cabinetmaker. In fact, a very nice and perfectly good treadle can be made much more easily like the one that Gillyfish’s father made for her which can be seen below.

Rich

Front Room Press
Milford, NJ
http://frontroompress.com
http://frontroompress.blogspot.com

image: Gillographic Treadle.jpg

Gillographic Treadle.jpg

Did the 325 have a gripper pedal to begin with, and the rest of the necessary linkages? They were only present on the 325G models, not the 325A models.

Right. Vandercook 325A presses have automatic grippers that open when the cylinder is at either end of it’s travel. There was some discussion of adding a lever to a 325 on the Vandercook.info site to give the operator more control over the grippers on this press.

1) thanks for the quick and informative answers. I really appreciate it.

2) the crankshaft has the u-dip in it allowing for the treadle to be re-attached. As a tangent question does the curve hinder the motor in anyway and if not why replace it as it seems was often the case? If it did hinder I know the answer.

3) As I am brand spanking new to this studio I can’t say for sure what came with the press. There were/are major renovations taking place and a lot of stuff got moved and shifted on their way around five rooms. What I can say is that the press has the drill holes for a treadle to be installed (see pic one) Perhaps this was common practice even without installing one…I don’t know.

4) In regards to the grippers they do open their maw on about 6 inches before it locks into the cylinder’s resting place, but closes when it gets there. I’m sure that quickdraws can get new paper in there, but it seems like there should still be another option. Is this what you mean Arie about being open on either end or are you talking about them remaining open when at rest. (pic 2)

5) The third picture is just it from a distance. I’m in the middle of de-rusting and re-oiling so it isn’t as pretty as it’ll soon be.

6) Rich…that treadle is gorgeous. Unfortunately my skills lean more towards Gillyfish’s style if even that. Most likely I’ll contact Hern, particularly since it is for the University.

7) Finally, thanks again for all the help and support.

Joseph

image: treadleholes.jpg

treadleholes.jpg

image: grippersclosed.jpg

grippersclosed.jpg

image: 325.jpg

325.jpg

Hello,
This may be unpopular advice, but the first thing I’d do in your position is see to the removal of the C&P presses. While they are wonderful machines, they simply do not belong in a place where they will be used by students.

Because they violate today’s OSHA standards an accident involving one of these presses might not even be covered by the school’s liability policy. If you’d like to teach on platens you might want to be on the lookout for a Pilot or two.

Daniel Morris
The Arm Letterpress
Brooklyn, NY

That is a 325 A, with sheet delivery, but some parts missing. Most important is the whole finger assembly at the lip of the feedboard. It would suspend the head of the sheet out where the grippers could close on it, then flip up, out of the way, as the cylinder is advanced. It also looks like the sheet delivery table is gone, but a table placed at the end of the bed could receive the sheet.
Unfortunately, you would need to add and replace dozens of parts to get this to foot-pedal operation.
There isn’t a heabar either, and that is dangerous. Look under the bedplate for deadlines scribed in the bed at head and tail. They indicate the printing limits, and type-high elements placed outside them can damage the grippers.

Joseph:

The grippers on a 325A Vandercook should remain open when the cylinder is at rest next to the feedboard as in photo #2. Most likely the cylinder is off by one tooth on the gear rack; especially if the press has been disassembled at any time. The grippers also open up at the far end of the bed to release the sheet just printed as the cylinder switches into trip mode.

Daniel and I disagree regarding the use of platen presses in the college or university setting. We have a 10x15 C&P OS with a treadle at the local University where I assist in a Book Arts class. They are no more dangerous than the many tools you find in Art departments’ wood and metal shops.

That said, they can be dangerous if improperly used and I train all of the students who use this equipment and emphasize safety.

Daniel, I appreciate your advice very much. I (as well as the University) take safety very seriously as I’m sure the vast majority of us do. However, I do not intend to send these presses away. The 8 x 12 will be used only under supervision and is being reverted to a treadle. The motorized 12 x 18 will be restricted to only the students who have had the most training and it will most likely only be used as a demo tool. Also, as I mentioned earlier there are major renovations taking place and a large part of that is safety and greening. While I admit ignorance to all of the dealings that went on, it seems to me that the school and the contractors and a dozen other have come to some sort of consensus that there are too be coverings placed on the presses exposed gears. This doesn’t prevent pulverized fingers, but training and supervision does.

I’ll try to take a video of the closing of the press and its grippers. If they can remain open then I can work with it.

The lack of fingers aren’t a killer for me if I can get the grippers to open at the end. Limits the ease of registration a tad, but I (the School) can do without. Unless, you feel that it is something easily(er) replaced.

Yep, can’t find the headbar (yet) but there is a visible deadline so I wasn’t overly worried about it (yet) However, I’m keeping my peepers open for one.

The sheet delivery is exciting to me. Never used it before, so you know…giddy anticipation.

Joseph

Actually, the 325 grippers are supposed to close at the feedboard on both A and G models; according to the blueprints, they must close 1/16” before end of cylinder travel measured from edge of feedboard to edge of cylinder. The cylinder edge, that is, the line between cylinder and clamp, should be at the very top at that position. It happens to be 3/4” from feedboard edge to cylinder edge on my 325G.
On presses with sheet delivery, the grippers open as the sheet comes around to the delivery strippers, well before they do on a press without delivery: different cams.
Looking at sales materials, since this press lacks adjustable headstops, it was intended for use with type-high stereotype chases which sat before the deadline. Apparently, grippers clear, but the headstops would not. So if you find the headbar, it will not line up with the deadline, needing some extra furniture behind it.

From my point of view, if only Vandercooks (or tabletops) are considered safe for teaching, students will not get exposure to the only presses most can probably afford to own themselves. Student demand, in part, has driven prices ridiculously high for Vandercooks and tabletops, while floor model platens have remained, for the moment, relatively affordable. However, the quality of teaching (and learning!) must be very high, and that does not seem to be the case everywhere.

The Arm’s comment: ” Because they violate today’s OSHA standards an accident involving one of these presses might not even be covered by the school’s liability policy.” is good advice. Operating a flywheel operated C&P as an employee of any business or organization is illegal in the United States…. it’s that simple. (I had to pay a very hefty fine once for that violation.)

I would urge you to research this point with your University’s health and safety professional prior to putting them into operation. Legally even an instructor cannot operate such a machine as an employee of the school….. no matter how many years of experience they have. OSHA rules and insurance case decisions are very clear on the matter.

I concede the point that there are other machines that are just as dangerous in many school wood-shops, art departments, and so forth. However, most of those machines came with Guards and/ or safety devices intended to prevent injury. If those guards are removed, the machines are just as illegal as your C&P.

My point here is not to put down your machines… I love C&P’s, and own one myself. My point is that there are legal issues in using them in a school or business that you must know about and research well before you put them into operation.

Arm and Winking Cat,

Thanks for the legal end of the spectrum. I was completely unaware of that whole mess. Every institution I’ve been a part of has had them (and utilized them). It never crossed my mind that their use may be illegal.

I’ve contacted the people I need to in order to find out what the plan was prior to my arrival at the University. Like I mentioned above something was put into action as all of the gears (on all the presses, etching, litho and letter) are being covered (something that was stressed upon my first arrival) and the ok was placed to supply them with new electric grids. Of course none of this stops two pieces of metal exerting tons of pressure from chomping down… anway, I’ll be in contact with who I need to be n contact with. Thanks for the heads up. DO either of you happen to have a site page or document that mentions this that you could send me? Or do I need to contact OSHA for that info?

Tanks a heap,

Joseph

Arm and Winking Cat,

Thanks for the legal end of the spectrum. I was completely unaware of that whole mess. Every institution I’ve been a part of has had them (and utilized them). It never crossed my mind that their use may be illegal.

I’ve contacted the people I need to in order to find out what the plan was prior to my arrival at the University. Like I mentioned above something was put into action as all of the gears (on all the presses, etching, litho and letter) are being covered (something that was stressed upon my first arrival) and the ok was placed to supply them with new electric grids. Of course none of this stops two pieces of metal exerting tons of pressure from chomping down… anyway, I’ll be in contact with who I need to be in contact with. Thanks for the heads up. Do either of you happen to have a site page or document that mentions this information that you could send me? Or do I need to contact OSHA for that info?

Tanks a heap,

Joseph

Having been in a teaching situation at a public university I would like to share my thoughts on this subject. The press studio is about 400 square feet and originally housed two Vandercooks and a 10” x 15” C&P. The previous instructor told me that several years earlier a student had caught her hand in the C&P, and he decided that it wasn’t a good idea to run that kind of risk. I was slightly aware of OSHAs dislike of C&Ps, but having run them for 25 years I believed (and still do) that with the right operating space and instruction they are as safe as other mechanized tools in an art studio.

In my situation I had to take into account that I would be teaching 10 to 15 students in an area the size of a two car garage. I felt that the distractions caused by that number of people in such a small space would prohibit the use of a machine that takes so much concentration to operate safely. If I had a much larger space or much fewer students I would feel differently. But my feelings and experience do not matter when it comes to the possibility of an injury to a student. I suspect that the university lawyers would prefer to remove the possibility of a lawsuit as well. I opted to acquire 2 tabletop Pilot presses, to give the students some experience on a platen press and let the beautiful 10” x 15” go.

I know a fellow not much older than I who ran a hand-fed Miehle Pony cylinder press to print his high-school newspaper. I you have been around one, it is hard to imagine 15 and 16 year-olds climbing around on one today. Indeed it would never happen in this litigious society. Years ago printers would hire high-school kids to feed their presses regularly. It is how many printers got their start. I am sad about the decision I had to make, but I don’t regret it.